گفتگو

CONVERSATION LESSON

PATTERNS CAN BE BROKEN

Dan: AC, what’s happening, man?

Aaron: Not much, man. How’re you doing?

Dan: I’m doing all right.

Aaron: Yeah.

Dan: Enjoying the fall colors.

Aaron: Oh yeah? What kind of colors are going on there? Is it full? Is it in fullfledged mode?

Dan: Yes. Vibrant oranges and reds.

Aaron: Oh, wow.

Dan: It’s beautiful.

Aaron: Here in Japan, we haven’t quite gotten there yet.

Dan: Oh, really?

Aaron: Not the peak. The peak will be probably in another two or three weeks, towards the end of November.

Dan: That’s what we’re talking about this month, change.

Aaron: That’s right. Change, turning over a new leaf. Yeah. You been turning over any new leaves in your life recently?

Dan: Lots of changes.

Aaron: Yeah.

Dan: Lots of big changes.

Aaron: Yeah.

Dan: Moved. Set up in the US. But yeah, a lot of people think that change is unlikely, especially when you get older. I’m not talking about making a move, moving. Of course you can. Physical changes are easy.

Aaron: Yeah.

Dan: But personal growth, inner growth, personalities, that those are kind of set in stone, that you can’t teach an old dog new tricks.

Aaron: Right. Right. Right. Right. But I think that’s maybe not so true.

Dan: Yeah. Well not in this month’s story.

Aaron: No. Not at all. I think there’s some good examples of people in down and out places that make the best of it.

Dan: Like Professor Hopwood.

Aaron: Yeah. Professor Hopwood. He’s one of them.

Dan: A bank robber, who’s now an elite law professor. That’s amazing.

Aaron: Yeah. I’ve always had this conception of American prison, the whole American prison system as kind of failing a lot of people in the sense that it’s not really reformative. It’s more of a punishment. You go in there, but there’s no real strong programs to try and really help people to turn their lives around in any sort of holistic, deep way.

Dan: I was just reading about this prison in Norway where they treat you really nice. You get a private room with a private shower and a flat screen TV. And you’re only confined to that room for maybe eight hours a day. They made a point that it’s not supposed to be punitive at all. It’s not punishment. And they spend an enormous amount of money. They spend something like $80,000 or $90,000 a year per prisoner. But they really see it as an investment. And the rate that they return to prison after being released is way lower than the US.

Aaron: How about that. Yeah.

Dan: It’s some like 16% versus 70% in the US.

Aaron: Wow. Wow. Yeah.

Dan: 70% of people after five years, they’re going to be back in prison.

Aaron: Yeah. It’s revealing. But I wonder what they do with really violent murderers and things like that in that system.

Dan: Yeah. I mean, I think this is a special prison for people who aren’t violent.

Aaron: I see.

Dan: And if you do something violent, then you get sent back to one of these more hardcore prisons.

Aaron: Right. Right. Right. Right.

Dan: But I do remember hearing about that. Who’s that neo-Nazi guy? Was it Norway? He ended up shooting like 30 people.

Aaron: It was one of those countries in Scandinavia, I think, maybe Sweden.

Dan: I’m sure it was Norway.

Aaron: Was it Norway? They just made a movie out of it.

Dan: Did they?

Aaron: I think it was on … Some kind of movie on Netflix I think I saw. I didn’t watch the movie, but I saw the previews for it.

Dan: I was reading about him. I think he was trying to sue the prison or lodge some formal complaints because they gave him a PlayStation Two instead of a PlayStation Four or whatever.

Aaron: It’s crazy. He murdered dozens of people in cold blood.

Dan: And they wouldn’t let him play violent video games, so he thought that was cruel.

Aaron: Oh, man. That’s a little over the top. Yeah. I don’t know how I would feel about that if one of my loved ones was murdered, and the guy was complaining about what PlayStation to have. I don’t know about that.

Dan: But in general, trying to not harden people even more, which is what happens in the US. It’s just like a crime university.

Aaron: Right.

Dan: But anyhow, yeah. Shon Hopwood, he used his time to learn the law.

Aaron: Yeah.

Dan: It’s amazing. Even as an untrained, or a self-trained … I won’t say he was a lawyer, but as a self-trained legal aid, he was able to prepare a petition that the Supreme Court accepted, the state Supreme Court. It was a one in 10,000 occurrence.

Aaron: Yeah. That’s amazing.

Dan: So, yeah. When he got out, I think he very quickly got a job as a paralegal or something like a paralegal. And he was able to get a scholarship to law school.

And he didn’t seem to have a problem being admitted to the bar.

Aaron: I wonder if … I mean, let’s imagine that he had done the same thing, he had studied all this law in prison. But what if the Supreme Court had not accepted his petition? What if they had rejected it? I just wonder, because of the rarity of that and the success that he achieved by being one out of 10,000 petitions that was accepted, if that was the thing that drew attention to him. And then schools like Georgetown were interested in having him because of the talent that he showed and the knowledge that he showed. Because coming out of prison in the American system, it’s a huge stigma to have been a convicted felon. I just wonder if schools like that would give the same opportunity to otherDan: The first time he came in as a professor, where he went to law school, where he got his education.

Aaron: Oh, I see.

Dan: I’m not so sure. Yeah. That might’ve played a part in him becoming a professor there, his notoriety.

Aaron: Right.

Dan: I shouldn’t say notoriety. That soundsAaron: Well, the success he achieved, that’s … Yeah. But anyway, I just wondered if that was something that played a role in him being able to so quickly and easily move into law school.

Dan: Right.

Aaron: Actually, we maybe we’re just speculating. I don’t know how quickly and easily it was for him. Maybe it was difficult. I don’t know.

Dan: And it might have to do with the state. As some people probably don’t know, that your legal certification is done on the state level in the US, so perhaps it was just the state that Tarra tried to pass the bar in, where she got prohibited from taking the test, which is very strict.

Aaron: Oh, I see. Yeah, whereas the one Shon may have been in could’ve been a lot more lenient in that respect.

Dan: But wow, that Tarra, she really overcame a lot in her life.

Aaron: Yeah. That’s quite amazing as well because the odds were certainly stacked against her as a young child and teenager. Getting pregnant at the age of 15 and living on the street at the age of 13, and being forced into prostitution and dealing with gangs and drugs and abuse and shoplifting. It’s incredible. Most youth in those situations, they end up dead or in jail.

Dan: Right.

Aaron: Or drug addicts, et cetera.

Dan: I thought it was really cool that they both had dedicated themselves to helping prisoners either re-assimilate or get their sentences reduced because America is a prison state. I think it’s number one per capita.

Aaron: I think so. I think it’s close to … I don’t think they’ve reached 1% of the population in jail yet, but it’s close. I think it’s, the last time I checked, it was almost at 1%. And it’s a huge industry. More prisoners, more money.

Dan: Yeah. The fact that the government outsources prisons isAaron: It’s frightening.

Dan: Just does not sit right.

Aaron: And there are some communities in the states where an overwhelming majority of the population is employed by the local prison. You can’t shut the prison down, and business has to run well to keep people employed, so you need a steady influx of prisoners, so there needs to be crime and there needs to be people committing crimes in order for people to survive. It’s odd. Yeah. Anyway.

Dan: Speaking of money. Shon Hopwood, I read an article, he turned down a $400,000 a year corporate job as a corporate lawyer because working on behalf of trying to reduce, trying to reform prisons was more important to him.

Aaron: Wow.

Dan: I’m sure he gets paid quite well as a Georgetown professor, but not at that kind of level.

Aaron: Yeah, right. Well, he knows what he wants. And it’s meaningful to him. And he makes a difference in people’s lives. Maybe as a corporate lawyer, the only difference he would’ve made is to the corporation.

Dan: Right.

Aaron: Which is not maybe so fulfilling for a guy like him, who has the background that he has. Very interesting. Shon Hopwood.

Dan: Have you known anybody in your life that really turned over a new leaf, or went through some dramatic transformation?

Aaron: Wow. Not at the level of Shon and Tarra. It sort of pales, anything I would say pales in comparison to these amazing people. But I mean, in a minor way, sure. I know people that have turned over a new leaf and transformed their physical health, people who’ve been very overweight and who didn’t exercise and who made a commitment to changing their lifestyle for the betterment of their physical health, which is connected to your mental health, and it’s connected to your relationships. It’s connected to everything. You improve one aspect of your life, and it has an effect on other things. Yeah, I know some people that have done that. What about you? Do you know of anyone who’s really transformed themselves in some way?

Dan: Yeah. I know a guy that you know too. I won’t out him by name. But I went to college with him. He was a real jerk.

Aaron: Oh, really?

Dan: He was really aggressive. He wouldn’t start physical fights with people, but there was always that kind of lurking beneath the surface that there was always that kind of threat. He was a martial artist. And he had lived on the streets for a few years as a teenager. And I met him in university when I studied abroad in Japan. And I remember one of the first times I met him in Japan, as you know …

Actually, I came a little bit before you. But it probably was like this when you first came too. 25 years ago or so, Japan was much more wasteful, and there are much more people would throw out things that were in very good condition, and you could go by the trash days for large furniture.

Aaron: Refrigerators, ovens. Yeah. I remember.

Dan: TVs.

Aaron: Yeah. In perfect condition.

Dan: When I arrived in Japan as a student, this guy, he had already been in Japan for a month. And he’d already sussed out all of this used loot that you could pick up off the streets. And he had seven or eight TV sets in his dorm room, and he was selling them to the students, not for a lot of money.

Aaron: But he was making a little money on it.

Dan: Something. I think I paid him maybe 30 or 40 bucks for an old small TV. I brought it to my room, and then I plugged it in. And it didn’t work. And he didn’t want to give me my money back.

Aaron: Oh. So he sold you a lemon.

Dan: Yeah. We were classmates. We just met. And that was the … I think maybe eventually he did give me my money back. But that was the kind of guy he was.

He was just very divisive and very aggressive. And I stayed on in Japan. And he left and went, I don’t know, other places. Every once in a while, he would come back into town. And he would reach out to me through another friend to try to hang out. That’s the last thing. I didn’t want anything to do with this guy. I really thought of him as a real lowlife. And he just kept pushing it. He just kept reaching out to me. And so finally I, I don’t know, maybe five or six years ago, I spent some time with him. And he had completely changed, and he had spent a significant amount of time in an NGO, traveling the world, helping people. And he still had this kind of aggressive energy about him, but I could tell he had changed a lot.

Aaron: He channeled it into more productive areas.

Dan: And he just gave me the feeling that he’s one of these kind of give-you-theshirt-off-his-back kind of guy, so that if you were in trouble, he’d be there for you.

Aaron: Wow.

Dan: Even if you weren’t really a close friend.

Aaron: Wow.

Dan: Yeah, so I think about him when we were writing the story, as somebody who really can change. He didn’t go from bank robber to professor.

Aaron: Sure. Right. Right.

Dan: But on an inner level, he really changed.

Aaron: Wow. How about that. There you go, Dan. It’s not too late for you. You can transform your life.

Dan: You could grow your hair back.

Aaron: I could.

Dan: You could fill in that bald spot.

Aaron: Yeah. I could do that. Yeah, yeah.

Dan: My receding hairline, that could come back too.

Aaron: It could.

Dan: When I first became a teacher, my students called me Mr. Forehead Man.

Aaron: Really?

Dan: They were rude.

Aaron: Because you had such a giant forehead.

Dan: Because I had the receding hairline.

Aaron: Okay. Now you do the comb-over.

Dan: So do you know any big transformers?

Aaron: Transformers, you mean people who transform other people?

Dan: No, themselves.

Aaron: Oh, self-transformation. I don’t know any other ones, no. I just know a few people that have, like I said, changed their lifestyle in terms of their health, and that had positive benefits on other aspects of their life. I’ve seen students who come in as first year students at the university, who have certain issues with confidence or with their ability to communicate and connect with others, who through the various experiences they have at the university and going abroad, they really transform. They become much more open and curious and risk taking people, who lose some of their inhibitions and lose some of their fears. Yeah. I’ve seen quite a few students like that. So there you have it.

Dan: There it is.

Aaron: All righty.

Dan: All right, buddy.

Aaron: Okay.

Dan: Next time.

Aaron: All right. We’ll see you. Adios.