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Okay, how are you doing Aaron?

Pretty good, how about yourself?

I’m doing all right.

Yep.

Ready to start the new year off with-

Oh yeah, I’m excited about 2017.

You going to be the underdog?

I’m always an underdog in my own mind.

Right.

Yes.

I’m an over-dog.

You’re an over-dog?

Yeah. I’m the alpha dog.

You’re the alpha dog, really?

You’re the beta dog.

I’m glad you think that way. I guess somebody …

They say …

… has to.

… it’s the Year of the Rooster.

That’s right, it’s the Year of the Rooster.

Are you going to be the chicken or the egg?

I’m going to be the rooster.

You’re going to be the rooster.

I’m going to be the rooster.

All right.

Yeah.

Yeah, today we’re talking about underdogs, and really remarkable story about Kalpana Saroj that I never heard before.

I’ve never heard it either, yeah. I thought it was a very good story.

Yeah, isn’t the world just full of amazing people? You think you’ve heard it all, and then you hear about this woman who started with everything stacked against her.

That’s right.

She came out to be a multimillionaire, incredibly successful business woman.

Who took that success and gave back to her community to help other people just like her, which I think is the best part of the story, because you have that happen. You have in communities all over the world people go on to become powerful or become rich or very, very educated, and then they never go back to the community from which they came. They forget about it, and it doesn’t add any value back into that community.

Right.

That’s a problem with a lot of inner city communities in the United States, and I think it’s also a problem with developing countries.

Mm-hmm.

Talented people move to places in Europe, or they go to the university in America, and they become PhD’s or professionals, and then they stay in those countries, they don’t go back to the communities. It’s brain-drain basically, yeah.

She was married off at 12 years old …

12 years old. It’s hard to imagine.

… and treated horribly, and beaten, and starved. Can you imagine that family now seeing her as this $100 million worth success.

Yeah.

I wonder if they’ve ever tried to contact her and say, well, let’s just let bygones be bygones, how about a loan, Kalpana?

Yeah. We love stories like that, we like to see the underdog win.

Yeah.

Yeah, so rooting for the underdog.

Yeah, do you watch any sports?

I do, I love sports.

What sports do you watch?

These days I don’t have much time to watch sports, but when I do find myself with a moment I like to watch football or soccer, right, soccer.

Then you probably knew that story, that was new to me.

Oh, the Leicester story, Leicester City?

Leicester City.

Oh yeah, I followed that quite closely last year, yeah.

That must of been really exciting for soccer fans, football fans.

Yeah, it was, totally, because those clubs at the top like Manchester United, and Manchester City, and Arsenal, Tottenham Hotspurs, all those teams they just have mega amounts of money, right, just tons of money. They can buy any players they want essentially.

Yeah.

You have this little club that just got promoted the year before to the Premier League which is a big deal for them, but they have only a small fraction of the money to spend. Their star player, this guy Jamie Vardy he’s a striker, just years before that he was playing in rock bottom like semi-pro leagues, and he just sort of worked his way up.

Right.

He’s not particularly talented, he’s just got lots of grit and drive.

Uh-huh, Uh-huh. What about, actually I don’t know, but what I read was that they were on the verge … I didn’t realize they had just been promoted into the Premier League. What I read was they were on the verge of being demoted.

Well they were the year before.

Okay.

Yeah, and that was the year they came in I believe.

Okay.

I mean, teams every year, three teams get demoted and three teams get promoted from the league that’s underneath them. They had gone in the previous year and had to fight to stay in the league, so everyone expected them last year, they expected them to either have to fight once again, they were at the bottom of the league. It was just amazing the run that they went on winning games, beating all the big teams, it was quite amazing.

Right.

Yeah.

Hey, I’m hearing some interference from your mic, could you put this cord down?

I think that’ll make it worse, but we can try.

Let’s just try.

Okay.

Yeah, just the amount of money that these teams like Manchester United have on hand, obviously they can recruit so much more star power.

Yeah, and they have it. I mean, that’s why when you watch these teams play it’s clear that one side is more talented than the other, but that’s not everything. It’s a very physical league, and teams if you have a really good teamwork, and cooperation, and you have a good team spirit, you can beat anybody on any given day.

Yeah.

That’s what happened, they just kept winning and kept winning, and guess what? This year they’re right down towards the bottom again.

Oh, really?

Pretty much the same team, yeah.

Why do you think that is?

I think certain teams they peak at different times, and they’re-

Did they have the same coach that they had during …

Same coach.

… the winning?

They only lost one decent player, the rest were all the same players essentially. Actually interestingly the owner of that team is Thai.

Yeah, I did know that.

On their jersey it says King Power.

Yeah.

Anyway, they won over the hearts of so many people around the world with the way that they made that incredible achievement.

Right.

Yeah, that was a real feel-good story to watch the underdog win.

I actually read this story about how they were trying to connect that their incredible victory with this sorted past from the year before where a couple of the players on that team, and one of the players was the son of the coach, were in Thailand. Some sort of story with prostitutes, and his players …

Yeah, I vaguely remember …

… were videoing it …

… that, right.

… and I think they did something horrible, they were abusing these women or something. These videos got online, and the player got fired, and because the players father was coach he quit in protest.

Oh, wow.

Him quitting in protest allowed this other coach to come in and completely change things.

Yeah, and that’s what led to their victory, yeah.

Yeah, they say.

Yeah, interesting.

I don’t know how much it really is the coach, or how much it’s just the chemistry of the players.

I think chemistry plays a big role, but a coach is a very important of that, yeah.

Yeah. Apparently this coach, this Italian guy, he came in, kind of throwing out the playbook that he used to coach with where he would try to really control the strategy, and really tried to leave it up the players.

Right.

Anyways, 5,000 to one, can you imagine-

Oh, putting money down on that?

I mean, there must some bookies that had to go out of business …

Oh, right …

… to pay that …

… to cover.

… off. I mean-

Some people did bet on that, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, if somebody bet …

100 pounds …

… $1,000 …

Or 1,000 pounds, right.

… what would that be? That would be like $5 million.

Would be a lot of money.

5,000 to one. Apparently they don’t, at least these British betting houses, they don’t take bets anymore for those odds because it was so devastating.

It’s too risky for them, yeah.

I don’t know if you can still bet on Elvis being alive at 2,000 to one, but I did look up some betting odds of these British gambling houses. Apparently you can bet on who the next James Bond will be.

Okay.

It’s 250 to one that P. Diddy will be the next …

Oh, really?

… James Bond.

Okay.

You can get in on that bet.

Oh, no thanks. I don’t think he’s going to get it.

You can bet on whether the next James Bond will be black at five to one.

Yeah. There’s a British actor that’s very classy, and his name like Edra or El…Abis, Ed.. I can’t pronounce his name, I don’t know it off the top (of my head)…

People think they’ll be the next James Bond?

Yeah, yeah, he has very good chance.

Okay, I wonder what the odds are there.

Yeah, he’d be a pretty cool Bond I think, yeah.

Yeah, you can bet whether Britain will legalize marijuana by 2020 at 12 to one odds.

12 to one odds, yeah.

Yeah, you can bet on almost anything. I was reading that at the same time that they were giving 5,000 to one odds on Leicester City, they were also giving 5,000 to one odds on Kim Kardashian, reality TV star, famous for pretty much nothing, and no real known talents or skills apparently. They’re giving her 5,000 to one odds to become president.

Of the United States?

Yes.

Now I’m sure that has improved now that Donald Trump-

Yeah, now that Trump, anything-

He’s a reality TV star basically.

Anything is possible now.

Yeah, and what do you think the odds are that by this time next year I will still be your mentor?

You will still be my mentor?

What do you think the odds are?

I mean, first we would have to wager why you’re so confused about this situation. Could it be a lack of medication, a lack of …

I don’t know.

… counseling, something in the water?

Maybe. Maybe it’s the water.

Yeah.

Maybe that’s it.

Yeah. I wonder what the odds were for Donald Trump becoming president say …

Well, yeah, that’d be very interesting.

… now a year back.

Right. I’m sure you can look that up, yeah.

I bet somebody probably made a lot of money off of that bet. Yeah, why do we go after the underdog?

Because it makes us feel good when they win. We share in that feeling, we share in that experience.

Yeah.

As an underdog it feels good to win, it’s a really good feeling.

Yeah.

Whereas if you know you’re the best, if you know you’re the mo-, you expect to win.

Right.

When you do win it’s another day on the job.

Right.

It’s like, okay, I did what I expected to do, what’s next, where’s the next challenge? As the underdog it’s such an exhilarating feeling to-

What if your competing against the underdog, you think you ever get any boost …

I think that can be very frustrating.

… when you lose to an underdog?

Not only I wouldn’t say a boost, I’d say it’s a big downer.

I read something really cool that John McCain supposedly said when he lost against Obama.

Right.

He said it was devastating, but there was a part of him that was proud to be an American to witness America choosing the first African-American President.

I see, yeah. Yeah, I guess it depends on the situation.

Yeah.

Interesting, yeah.

That research where they had this team A and this team B, no other information, just a hypothetical imaginary team, and team B was the underdog, who you going to pick? 80% or 81% said I’m going to pick team B just because they’re the underdog.

Just because they’re the underdog, and then they flipped.

Yeah, yeah, and then they said, okay, now team B is in the lead.

I totally understand it. I, I love rooting for the underdog, it’s just more exciting.

Yeah.

You want to see someone overcome adversity, overcome the odds …

In this situation-

… and it says something about the human spirit.

In this situation they saw their underdog team B starting to win, they said, okay, now your team B has won three games, and half the people jumped ship, well they’re not an underdog anymore.

That’s right, that is right.

Yeah, if you have that attitude you’re just destined for disappointment.

Right, yeah.

These researchers they did, actually I don’t know if was these researchers or a different group of university researchers, looking at underdogs’ hypothetical situations, and they did this with all different kinds of things. They did it with like small businesses, like you got the Walmart and big multi-national store corporation, and you got a small mom-and-pop store, who do you want to win?

Yeah.

People choose the underdog, or-

But they shop at Walmart.

Yeah.

They choose it then they still shop at Walmart because the prices are cheaper, and you have a much bigger selection. It’s just no contest.

Yeah, maybe it’s just in people’s hypothetical imagination we like the underdog, but when we actually have to-

Put down the money and, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s a different story, isn’t it?

They did this with, they even did it with artists.

Uh-huh.

They said, okay, you’ve got this world famous artists and you got this plucky nobody trying to make it in the art world, who do you want to win the art competition?

Yeah.

I want the underdog to win.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They even did it with geometric shapes.

Really?

They made an animation with like a circle going up a mountain very easily, and then another circle just kind of quivering and struggling to get up this mountain, and they’d say, which circle do you want to win?

What circle.

I want that plucky little quivering circle to win.

That’s right, that’s right.

We can even attach our self to geometric shapes.

Yeah.

Yeah, the underdog, when have you ever been the underdog?

Actually I experienced that a bit when I was a tennis player back in my high school days.

Uh-huh.

I was a hard-working tennis player, I wasn’t particularly good, I was okay, but I practiced a lot and I put my mind to it, and I became gradually better and better. By the time I reached my senior year I was the number one tennis player on our tennis team, but even still our tennis team was not very good. I would go up against the number one’s of a lot of the other teams in the state, and I would get my butt-kicked quite frequently, so I was almost always the underdog. However when I went up against certain people who definitely on paper would beat me, and when I won those matches which I occasionally did, other people were really happy for me, I was really happy about my performance, the other person was kind of devastated, and sometimes they were even happy for me.

Uh-huh.

It just depended the person. I mean, I always felt like I was not on top, I was always the underdog.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so I have that experience in sports.

In your high school you were the over-dog.

Within my high school, yeah.

Nobody says over-dog.

We don’t say over-dog, but we could use it, and we understand each other, yeah, but yeah, I was the top dog.

Yeah, you were the big fish in the little pond.

Big fish in a little a pond, that’s right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

I heard this interesting quote by the novelist Haruki Murakami.

Uh-huh.

I think he, some years back he won some literature prize in Israel.

Oh, okay.

He gave a speech and he said, I think talking about the political situation …

With the …

… between Israel and Palestine.

… Palestinians and, yeah.

He said, “Between a high solid wall and an egg that breaks against it, I will always stand on the side of the egg. No matter how right the wall may be and how wrong the egg, I will stand with the egg. Someone else will have to decide what is right and what is wrong, perhaps time or history will decide. If there were a novelist who for whatever reason wrote, works standing with the wall of what value would such works be?”

Interesting.

It was interesting, I mean, he’s saying that I’m not even going to get into the morality of who is actually correct.

Right.

I feel that as an artist, as a novelist, as somebody who creates works of art that are supposed to move people, that I should be standing with the side that is powerless, and that that is like an artist’s job to stand with the powerless.

Interesting.

Maybe as we’ve been talking about to inspire people that they are capable of overcoming.

Interesting, hmm.

Yeah, I thought it was really interesting that he made that division, that I’m not making the decision of morality of-

He’s not interested …

It’s a very …

… in what’s right and wrong, right.

… complicated situation with Israel and Palestine, and you can easily see both sides of the situation, but he said as an artist, as a novelist this is the stand I feel I must take.

Interesting. I’m sure it resonates with that feeling of rooting for the underdog, and wanting to see the underdog overcome the adversity before him. Yeah, very interesting.

Yeah, back to the story …

Mm-hmm, of Kalpana.

… of Kalpana Saroj. Yeah, it was interesting to see how that caste system still is a problem in modern day society. We see that not just in India but all over the world. We see that …

Oh, yeah, we see that all over, yeah.

… in Japan, there are medieval caste systems that still rear its head in kind of hidden discrimination.

Right.

Even in American how many-

Oh, the economic caste system is tremendously disproportionate between haves and have nots.

Yeah.

Yeah, that’s kind of an economic rather than … Now of course it’s tied in with race, and gender, and things like that, but, yeah.

It made me think about this happening in Japan, and how I just wonder how many countries around the world have these kind of medieval systems, this kind of tribalist thinking where we need to divide society into different groups to try to protect our power or our security, this tribalist nature.

Right.

How many countries out there are still dealing with these old medieval ideas.

Well I’m sure all societies are in some way, shape, or form. I mean, I think that’s part of just being human, we discriminate, and we label people.

Yeah.

That’s probably a survival mechanism from way back when, something evolutionary.

Right.

The possibility exists of overcoming that through awareness, and education, and through cooperation, but it just doesn’t seem like now it seems like things are going in the reverse direction, at least politically with what happened in Britain, and what’s happening in the United States, and all the wars that are taking place that are connected with religion. With ideals and economic power, wow.

I mean, at least these days this discrimination still exists, but at least it is suppressed by the legal system.

Yeah.

Just 50, what was it? 60, 65, no less than 60 years ago we had segregation in the United States.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We had black people who weren’t allowed to, legally were barred from restaurants, and public services …

Using the same …

… jobs, and …

… yeah, restrooms …

… that was legal.

… and buses and things, right, right.

Of course discrimination still happens in the States, but at the very least it’s illegal.

Yeah.

The same in India, this caste …

Right, the caste …

… discrimination …

… system, right.

… is illegal.

But still lingers.

In Japan the caste discrimination is illegal at the very least, so we are making progress.

Yeah.

On that note, fight the good fight.

Yeah, I will continue rooting for you, Dan, the underdog.

Yes, all right, all right, thank you, thank you very much over-dog, Aaron. Over and out.

Over and out man, see you later.

All right.