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Conversation Lesson

What’s happening, Aaron?

Oh, not a whole lot. Just hanging out.

Mad Dog Aaron.

Mad Dog. No.

That’s what they call you, right?

No, not at all.

That’s what they called you in high school.

No, no, no.

Did you have a nickname in high school?

I used to play tennis and on the tennis team, some of the guys called me Soup.

Soup.

Do you know why?

Soupy.

Do you know why?

Because you had no backbone.

No.

You’re just like soup.

That is not the reason. My last name is Campbell and Campbell, as you know, is the name of a very famous soup company. So, I was named Soup. I didn’t like it very much.

You used to threaten people?

No.

“I’ll drink your soup, pal.”

No. No. That was just Campbell’s Soup.

Soup. Soup’s on the court.

How about you? Did you have a nickname in high school?

Yeah, it was quite racist.

Really? What was it?

Yeah, I had some friends that used to call me Rickshaw.

Oh, okay. Because of the Asian connection?

Right, the Asian, what do you call that?

Asian persuasion?

Human powered cart. How do you describe a rickshaw?

Oh, a rickshaw?

Yeah.

Yeah. It’s like a human powered vehicle where you pull people.

So, yeah. My friends delighted in calling me Rickshaw.

That wasn’t very nice.

No. Terrible.

Yeah. Okay.

So, what are we talking about today?

What would you like to talk about?

I think we’re going to be talking about heroes.

Heroes.

Unlikely heroes.

Unlikely heroes of the animal persuasion.

That’s right.

Yes.

You’re big on the persuasion today.

Tonight, I am. I indeed am, yes.

Yeah. Pigeons, pigeons, dogs, cats.

Pigeons, dog, cats, vermin.

Vermin.

Perhaps.

Can they be heroes?

Can they be heroes? Truly heroes?

What is a hero?

That’s a good question.

People call me a hero all the time and I say, “Look. I’m no hero. Just doing my best.”

I think you’re a hero in your own mind. What is a hero? A hero is someone who accomplishes something in the face of fear, and usually that something helps other people, saves them, or aids them in some way.

So, now we’re getting into the realm of bravery.

Yes, that’s right.

So, the pigeon was called brave. Cher Ami was called brave.

Oh, Cher Ami. Yes. A brave pigeon.

Brave and noble.

Brave and noble. Yeah. I find that really interesting because it could be argued that it’s just a pigeon, it’s just a bird who is not aware of the context in which it’s acting.

How dare you?

It’s not aware of what a war is. It’s doing what it was trained to do. It could be argued that….

How dare you?

Yeah, how dare me?

How dare you? Cher Ami is an American hero.

I’m just saying what someone people might say.

You, sir, are not a patriot.

I’m not saying that’s what I’m saying. They may also say that we’re the ones who are maybe, let’s say, guilty of personifying the actions of an animal that doesn’t have the awareness of a human, and therefore, could not actually act in noble ways, only noble to a human, but to a bird, it may just be perfectly a natural thing to do.

Yeah. We got the expression “birdbrained”.

Birdbrained.

You’ve probably been called.

I’ve been called birdbrained many times. Yes.

Which means somebody who’s a little dim.

That’s right. A little dumb.

A little dull.

But actually, hang on. There are some birds that are quite dim. But there are some birds that are super intelligent.

Linguistically, parrots.

Parrots, myna birds, macaws. These birds can speak languages. They can mimic sounds. They’re highly intelligent.

Yeah. What was that story we did about, was it Groundhogs Think You’re Fat?

That was a long time ago.

We did this story a long time ago about some sort of large rodent, like a groundhog or something, that does communicate. They found that they have word for, I think one of their enemies was some sort of hawk and they would make a certain sound to warn their brothers and sisters if one of the hawks was near. They had another sound for humans. Then they found out that they even had sounds for different kinds of humans.

Fat humans.

Fat humans.

Tall humans.

Tall humans.

Or something.

Skinny human.

How about that? That’s interesting.

They even had words for colors that they test with the colors of the researcher’s shirt.

You don’t remember what sort of animal it was? You sure it was a groundhog?

No, it wasn’t a groundhog.

It was something rodent-like.

Now I got to find out. It’s going to drive me crazy. But anyhow, as intelligent as they are, I think the linguistic depth that they have, their vocabulary, nothing comes close to parrots.

Yeah. So, anyway, when it comes to bravery, could a pigeon be considered brave?

Sorry, I got to tell you. It’s a prairie dog.

It’s a prairie dog.

I just looked it up.

That’s it.

That Prairie Dog Thinks You’re Fat.

Yeah, That Prairie Dog. Yeah, That Prairie Dog. That was a Listening Fluency?

Yeah. That was an old one from 2013.

Wow.

But anyhow, yeah. Parrots, not only are they linguistically intelligent, you could say that they also are the only animal besides humans that dances.

Oh, that enjoys dance.

That moves rhythmically-

To music.

… for no other reason to music.

I see.

There are animals that have what you would call a mating dance, but not to human music.

I see. But birds will dance to human music.

Yes, for no reason besides enjoyment.

Enjoyment. Hey, you can’t blame them.

If you YouTube “parrot dancing”, there’re some great videos.

Okay. All right. Next time I’m bored, I’ll look it up.

So, yeah. Did Cher Ami know what was going on?

Yeah. I haven’t been around pigeons enough to know if they have some sort of brave streak or some sort of awareness.

There’re definitely ranges. I’ve heard that owls are not so intelligent.

Even though they’re one of the symbols of intelligence.

Right, of knowledge. Right?

Which is ironic. Yeah.

But hawks, apparently, are quite intelligent.

Yeah. Hawks, eagles.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Pigeons, pigeons, urban vermin.

Urban vermin.

I never really had any negative feeling towards-

Actually, I’ve always thought pigeons were beautiful. I think they’re beautiful animals. So, I don’t see them as vermin. Although, they do shit all over things in public places, which can create dirtiness. But they’re also really fast.

Really.

They’re very fast fliers.

That actually shocked me in the story. 25 miles in 25 minutes?

Yeah. They’re fast. They’re one of the fastest flying birds. That’s what I’ve heard.

Right.

Yeah. But, yeah. I’ve caught some pigeons. I like to catch pigeons with my bare hands.

Right. What?

They’re easy to catch. Yeah. I do it all the time. You feed them with crumbs and cracker crumbs or whatever. They come close to you, and because they’re used to humans, they’re city dwelling birds, they’re used to people feeding them. So, as they get closer, they’ll climb up on your hand and eat out of your hand or sit on your wrist. You can just grab them.

Take them home, fry them up.

No, no. But just grab them and play with them a little bit. They’re okay.

You were a lonely child. Who needs friends? Soupy’s got pigeons.

Actually, I love pigeons. I don’t know if they’re noble or brave, but they’re pretty cool.

Cher Ami is now sitting in the Smithsonian museum-

That’s right.

… in Washington D.C.

That’s another thing. I thought it was really funny that they thought she was a cock, a male. But in fact, they found out after she died that she was a female.

This is the 40s. They’re sexist.

I don’t think that was it.

Of course, they think, “Oh, look how brave this pigeon is. Must be a dude.”

I just think maybe they just never bothered to check. Maybe they just assumed.

Yeah, because they saw how brave, they thought-

This brave bird that, “Oh, it must be a male because it’s so brave in this time of war.” It’s a female.

Yeah.

Yeah, it could be very sexist, way of interpreting reality.

I also thought it was rather odd that they made a wooden leg for the bird.

That’s a little over the top there.

It can’t have been functional.

Maybe.

Could it?

I don’t know. Maybe. Who knows?

Could it have been in the 40s-

Maybe.

… they developed a prosthetic that was functional for a bird?

There’s a lot of interesting people out there, Dan. You never know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The other hero was Swansea Jack.

Swansea Jack. Got to love Swansea Jack, man.

Yeah. He saved a lot of lives.

27, right? Something like that?

Yeah. 27.

That’s incredible.

A Newfoundland. I didn’t know much about Newfoundlands.

They’re big dogs. They’re strong.

Yeah.

They’re big, strong dogs.

Good swimmers.

Good swimmers. They jump into cold water and help fishermen, traditionally.

Yeah.

That’s pretty cool. Yeah.

The whole city that they’re all nicknamed Swansea Jacks now.

Swansea Jacks. Yeah. That’s in Wales, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Have you ever been there?

No.

Oh, me neither.

No, never been there.

Me neither.

But I have had a dog.

You’ve had a dog.

I had a Shetland sheepdog.

Oh, yeah. Me too. A Sheltie.

A Sheltie. That’s right. But you had a big one. I had maybe a miniature one.

Yeah. I had a big one. I had one of the big ones.

Yeah.

Yeah. It was a female.

Was she good at herding things?

Very good. Yeah, she was very good at that. When I would play with her, she would use that behavior with me. She’d cut me off. I almost feel like I’d trip. So, I’d have to move out of the way. Yeah, a natural at that. Very intelligent dog.

So, yeah. Naturally, they were bred to, what, herd sheep?

Herd sheep. Yeah, that’s right. They herd sheep. So, how long did your dog live?

Pretty long. Maybe 13 years.

That was about, yeah, same as mine. 12 or 13.

Yeah.

Yeah. I remember saying goodbye to her before they put her down. It was kind of sad.

Yeah, me too.

Yeah. What was her name?

Her name was Michi.

Michi. Okay. Mine was Cassie. Good old Cassie.

Man’s best friends.

That’s right. Yeah, I like dogs. I’m more of a dog person than a cat person.

Yeah, it’s easier to see a dog as a hero, I guess because, unlike birds, they’re so much more naturally affectionate.

Yeah. They’re naturally affectionate, they tend to be very loyal, they tend to be very playful, they share their emotions openly. You can tell when a dog’s scared, you can tell when they’re angry, you can read them very easily and they can read you quite easily too. I’ve always had a good relationship with dogs, although I feared dogs sometimes. My sister’s got some pretty scary dogs. A little nervous going over there. But, yeah. Dogs are pretty cool.

It was interesting. You said that they’re good at reading people. You ever noticed a dog to tilt its head when it’s trying to maybe figure out what’s going on?

Yeah.

I was reading how they think that that might be to get around their snout, that by tilting, their snout moves out of their line of vision and they can see your face better to read your expression.

That makes sense.

Apparently, they’ve done some informal surveys of dogs with long snouts and dogs with short snouts. Apparently, both do that to some extent, tilt their head when they’re trying to understand what the human wants. But the dogs with short snouts, less so because it’s not blocking their vision as much.

Interesting.

But the most interesting part of the story, I thought, was trying to make this somewhat tenuous connection between the development of human civilization and dogs being a partner in that.

Yeah, that is interesting because how did dogs become so close to humans? Was it due to humans taming them? I find that hard to believe. I feel like it’s the dogs that saw an opportunity.

There’s some theories that some humans adopted some orphans or maybe stole some wolf babies, seeing an opportunity. But, yeah. I think it’s probably more likely the wolves seeing an opportunity in us, seeing this is a source of food.

A source of food.

Then let’s be mellower, source of food.

Let’s not attack these people.

Then slowly, over generations, they get mellower and mellower because they’re the ones that survive.

That’s right. Then it’s mutual. The dogs help the humans by warning them of danger, fighting off bears or whatever.

But I wonder how much, if this is just one person’s idea that we found in an article or if there’s any kind of supporting evidence that the safety that dogs provided did play a key part in being able to stay in one place to form, and then the division of labor, and then the development of cities-

Yeah, I don’t know about that.

… and all that rolls off of that if that first starting point was, a critical point was safety and the dog’s helped.

Yeah. I wonder. It sounds a bit farfetched to me. There must be other factors. It’s not like dogs created all of civilization.

Our dog lords.

They’re the ones that started it all.

But even just to say that they had a part, that’s a pretty cool idea.

Yeah, no. I would agree. They probably did have some part in shaping the way humans maybe may have made decisions back then. Sure, there’s something, but I don’t think it was a super significant-

I love that bit about the oldest human footprint has a dog print next to it.

Yeah. That’s interesting.

Apparently, there’s something about the print that you can see it’s not a wolf print.

Oh, really? It’s more of a domesticated version of a canine. I see. Yeah, interesting.

Then the last story was about the cat.

The cat. Yeah, the cat.

The cat. That poor cat. It reminds me of that, what was the story of the Japanese dog, Hachik??

Oh, Hachik?.

Right. Did they make a Japanese movie? It was a true story. I know they made an American.

I’m sure they did. Yeah, I think they did.

Yeah, I think they had a Richard Gere movie that copied the Japanese movie.

The Japanese version.

Which was about a real story of a dog. I think the dog used to walk with its owner to the train station.

To the train station.

The owner would go to work and then the dog would go home. The dog would go back to the train station to meet-

At the time that the train would come back to meet the owner. Then one day, the owner didn’t come back. So, the dog waited there forever and ever.

I think the dog would go there every day at that time.

Yeah, and just wait.

Yeah. I think at that train station, there’s a statue of that dog.

Yeah. That’s right. Yeah, Hachik?.

So, yeah. This cat in Central Java, I think, same kind of story. The cat was so heartbroken that it would return … This is actually, in a sense, more amazing than going to the train station because going to the train station, that’s a pattern that that dog had, probably for many years with its owner, going there and then knowing the owner was going to show up there again.

Going to the gravestone, there should be no connection with that human being because the cat never went there with the owner. If the story is true, and it appears so, that shows a lot of abstract conceptualization of death and that some remains of this person I love is here at this place.

Right.

Yeah, that’s amazing, actually, come to think of it. That didn’t occur to me.

Right. Yeah, I don’t have a whole lot of experience with cats. I think part of it is because I’ve always been allergic to them. So, I’ve never been around them. It’s hard for me to have any insight on cats.

Right.

But you’ve got some cats.

Yeah, I got two cats right now. They’re very genius cats, as you can attest.

Oh, yeah. I like your cats. They’re pretty cool.

Taught me everything I know.

Taught you everything you know. Where are those cats?

Yeah.

They’re hiding.

They’re somewhere.

They’re somewhere.

But, yeah. So, this cat felt so much grief for its owner that it would return to a grave that its owner has never visited in life every day.

Yeah, it does make you wonder. I still feel like sometimes we may personify their feelings based on our understanding of our own feelings. Is it truly grief or is it some sort of attachment? Maybe the cat’s not suffering. Maybe the cat is acting out of a sense of duty through its attachment to its owner. We would feel grief in those situations, and therefore, we maybe impose that grief upon the interpretation of what the cat’s actually doing.

We’re saying, “Oh, that cat feels a lot of grief.” Are we sure that that’s what it is? Like I said, I haven’t been around cats. Maybe the cat has this sense of duty through its attachment to its owner who gave it food and affection. Now it just feels like, “Okay, I must do this now.” But maybe it’s not because of grief. Maybe there’s no grief there.

But that’s the thing with this story, that there’s people trying to adopt the cat and give the cat attention and love and food.

Yeah. The cat doesn’t want it because it’s attached to its owner.

Yeah.

But is it really suffering? That’s what grief’s about, right? It’s about suffering. Is the cat really suffering?

The cat’s crying.

Really?

Yeah. At the grave.

Oh. I missed that part of the story.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, that’s a sign of grief.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like it’s certainly some sort of suffering. But is it grief in the human sort of way?

That’s what I question. Maybe the crying is crying out for, “Where are you? Where’s my owner? This is my duty to be with you. Where are you?” Could it be that kind of crying? Or are we just saying, “Oh, the poor cat. It’s in grief.”

I think it’s definitely not a confusion. It’s a suffering. I guess confusion is another sort of suffering.

Yeah, that’s definitely, yeah.

All right. I think we’re getting into the weeds here.

Yeah. Yeah, let’s not get bogged down.

Yeah. Let’s wrap this up.

Okay. I just want to go on record stating that I love animals.

Yes.

Yeah.

That’s why we cover animals a lot. I do tell.

I know. They’re great.

Yeah. All right, Soupy.

Okay. We’ll see you later, Rickshaw.

All right.

All right, see you.