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CONVERSATION LESSON

YES OR NO

Dan: Aaron, how are you doing?

Aaron: I’m doing all right, man. You know, I’ve seen better days. I got a bit of a headache. Not feeling great, but happy to be here with you a little bit.

Dan: A little bit? Can you be a little bit more positive?

Aaron: Well actually, I’m just going to tell you the truth, Dan. I really don’t want to be here. And I don’t like the way you’re wearing your hat, and your shirt looks old, and your beard looks scruffy, and I don’t like the shape of your nose. I’m being honest.

Dan: Anything else? Is that it?

Aaron: That’s it.

Dan: The shape of my nose? That’s an odd thing for you to be contemplating. Well, I’m posting my photo on the about page this week so everybody’s going to see that I have a very normal nose.

Anyhow, anything else you dislike?

Aaron: No, no. Not right now.

Dan: Okay, are you ready to turn it up a little bit? Come a little bit more positive?

Aaron: Yeah, let’s talk a little bit.

Dan: Okay, let’s talk. Let’s start off about positivity because that’s the first topic of the Core Audio. It was people who did crazy, positive things. Saying yes to everything. What do you think about that idea of just doing a mini-experiment in trying to be more positive about everything in your life?

Aaron: I think that might be really good for certain people, especially people who suffer from negativity or who tend to look at things in a negative way. It might be an antidote to those states of mind that a lot of people carry around with them.

Dan: What about if you’re not a negative—Like I think I’m a pretty positive person. I think you’re a pretty positive person.

Aaron: Yeah. I would say I’m definitely positive.

Dan: But even for positive people, you think there’s something that we could learn from doing a crazy, 24-hour saying “yes” to everything.

Aaron: I suppose. I have no desire to do that because I say “yes” too much anyway, probably.

Dan: Yeah, it sounds crazy, but I just think it’s interesting that these people, that all these good things came to these people by, of course a lot of bad things, but they had all these new opportunities that maybe they never would have experienced if they weren’t being extremely, wildly positive.

Aaron: That’s right. Is that something that you would be interested in trying for a short period of time?

Dan: No, no. Not really.

Aaron: There is a movie about that, right? The Jim Carrey movie.

Dan: Right, the Jim Carrey movie, Yes Man.

Aaron: That’s called Yes Man.

Dan: Yes Man.

Aaron: And he says ‘yes’ to everything and he has this wild adventure.

Dan: Yeah, and by being so positive, some bad things happen but he meets like a new girlfriend and he takes trips, he has adventures, he gets a raise in his job, he gets a promotion. But of course in the end it doesn’t completely work out for him and he’s got to drop it but having that period in his life was a good learning experience for him.

Aaron: I know a guy who said that he benefitted greatly from saying ‘yes’. He’s a guy who, in his early in his career—I mean he’s an older man, he’s in his sixties now, but early in his career, he said he said ‘yes’ to every opportunity that went by even if it meant working many hours for free or doing whatever it was, he was just really into helping people and taking advantage of every single opportunity that came his way. He ended up being a very successful man in his field but now he says ‘no’ quite a bit.

Dan: Yeah. I think that’s very good advice to anybody who’s young and starting out – be seeking to give more that you take and good things will come to you.

Aaron: Yeah, I believe in that. I firmly believe in that.

Dan: But then you come into a certain point in your life and you got limited time and limited energy, and you got to start shutting down the gate.

Aaron: I suppose.

Dan: Saying ‘no’.

Aaron: Shutting down the gates and saying ‘no’. I don’t know. That sounds a little extreme, Dan.

Dan: It sounds a little negative. I’m just playing devil’s advocate.

Aaron: Actually, the title of that movie is Yes Man and it’s about a guy who says ‘yes’ to everything.

But that phrase ‘yes man’ actually has another meaning.

Dan: Right, it’s a negative, derogatory term for somebody who doesn’t think independently. They just want to be a butt-kisser.

Aaron: Exactly. They want to get by—their method of achieving success is to just say yes to whatever their boss, the person in power, is telling them to do. At least in our culture, that’s seen as a very negative thing if someone calls you a ‘yes man’. It’s not a nice thing to be called.

Dan: I completely agree. You’re very brilliant, Aaron.

Aaron: Well, thank you.

Dan: The way you said that was wonderful.

Aaron: Case in point.

Dan: The obsequious ‘yes man’.

Aaron: That’s right. Have you ever been called a ‘yes man’?

Dan: No. But I’m sure I have been…

Aaron: Oh right. Behind your back or something.

Dan: Yeah.

Aaron: I’m sure I’ve been called ‘yes man’.

Dan: That’s not what I was going to say. Now it makes me feel that you’re calling me a ‘yes man’.

Aaron: Well, I may be behind your back. I just wouldn’t tell you.

Dan: How rude. How rude. All right. Let’s move on. What’s behind people who say ‘yes’ too much?

Aaron: I can tell you because I think I’m one of those people. I think I say ‘yes’ far too much for my own good. It tends to get me into a little bit of trouble because I tend to be overextended. I take on too many things. And I think one of the reasons is deep down I really want to help people, and I think that’s part of it. And I also think that I just enjoy doing things, I enjoy helping people, I enjoy working on stuff. There may also be something about wanting to be liked, not wanting to disappoint people, not wanting to cause confrontation, but rather to avoid confrontation. That might be another reason that people would say ‘yes’.

Dan: Sure, everybody wants to be liked.

Aaron: They don’t want to disappoint people, they don’t want to come up in confrontations, so it’s easier to say, “Oh yeah, sure I’ll do that,” rather than say, “No” and disappoint someone. So that could be also a part of…

Dan: Yeah, actually I just said everybody wants to be liked, but that’s not true. Some people don’t care at all, like psychopaths.

Aaron: Psychopaths. Right.

Dan: Who often become very high up in companies a lot, you know, preponderance of CEOs.

Aaron: That’s true. I’ve read that. There’s an article about that.

Dan: Like twice the average amount is, they say like 5% of the population have psychopathic tendencies, which doesn’t mean that they’re going to go kill somebody but they just don’t have empathy for other people. And maybe double the amount, maybe 10% of CEOs have psychopathic tendencies.

Aaron: Wow.

Dan: So I imagine most psychopaths don’t really care their how people think about them.

Aaron: It could be.

Dan: I think those are all some of the reasons that people say ‘yes’. They just are positive and they want to help people and also they want to be liked. But one other reason that some people say ‘yes’ a lot is they have what’s called ‘fear of missing out’, FOMO.

Aaron: Right, that was in the Core Audio.

Dan: Well, no it wasn’t.

Aaron: Oh it wasn’t.

Dan: I took it out because it was getting a lot.

Aaron: Oh ok. Let’s talk about it.

Dan: Well, fear of missing out is exactly that. It’s people who are constantly worried that there’s something else exciting happening that they’re not a part of so it leads them to say ‘yes’ all the time.

Aaron: They don’t want to miss anything.

Dan: Right. But it actually ends up meaning that they miss everything because they’re constantly thinking about what’s happening somewhere else, so even when they’re with their family or they’re watching some great show, they’re always thinking what else they could be doing. I don’t think I have ‘fear of missing out’ syndrome, but I had the feeling, you know when you’re in a conversation with somebody and you really don’t want to be in a conversation, and you’re consciousness starts going to other people in the room, like, “Yeah, I wonder what’s going on over there.” Aaron: That happens to me when I talk with you. I don’t know why that is, Dan.

Dan: All right. That’s very rude. That’s the second time.

Aaron: I’m just being honest.

Dan: Well, that’s the next topic, being rude.

Aaron: Well, that is the next topic. But also before we get on to that, I want to talk a little about the polar opposite of saying ‘yes’ which is saying ‘no’ because we hear this phrase quite a bit. The power of ‘no’ and how ‘no’ can actually be very liberating to allow you the space and the time and the energy to do the things you really want to be doing rather than doing the things that other people want you to do. This is something that I am starting to work with more and more, is learning how to say ‘no’ in order to focus on what’s important to me. So I think there’s some value in that.

Dan: And how is that working out for you?

Aaron: It’s not working out very well. Not yet anyway. I got a long way to go. But I think one of the main reasons is I don’t want to disappoint people. I want to help people. People, they want help, they need help. It’s like, “Yeah, sure, I’ll do whatever I can,” and it’s not always the best thing for me and my family.

Dan: So if all of our listeners were to email you and ask if they could stay at your house for just a couple of months, that would be a ‘yes’, right?

Aaron: That would be my tendency, to say ‘yes’. I think I’d have to think about that… Dan: Okay, well you heard it here. That’s pretty much an open invitation.

Aaron: But I think for me, moving on, the most interesting part of this lesson this month is about radical honesty, about that guy who made this practice of being radically honest, to say ‘yes’ when he meant ‘yes’ and ‘no’ when he meant .no’. I just thought that was a really interesting topic because I think the thing that interest me about it is the fact that if you look at all the teachings of major religions, one of the basic tenants in all of them is not to lie, to tell the truth, to be honest. In doing that, you become closer to God or you become more peaceful or whatever it is. It kind of makes me wonder to what extent is being radically honest leading you toward greater peace or peace of mind or whatever it is. I don’t know. I saw a movie just recently called Interstellar. Have you heard of it?

Dan: No.

Aaron: Excellent movie. Highly recommended. Anyway in the movie, it takes place in the future and it involves travelling through space and they have these robots that are programmed to help people in their journeys through space. The robots are programmed to be 90% honest. And in the movie, one of the main characters asked the robot, “Why is that?” And the robot said, “Well, with 90% honesty, it’s much easier to deal with emotional beings.” And I thought that it’s interesting and it made me reflect, wow, to what extent am I honest? Am I 90% honest? Am I 95% honest? It’s hard to go through a day being completely honest.

Dan: But we’re judiciously honest or dishonest. I’m just curious, were these robots just randomly 10% dishonest?

Aaron: I don’t know. See, that I don’t know. I just remember that detail.

Dan: Okay, well I think you should figure that out before you bring it out. I’m just being honest. It really annoys me.

Aaron: Actually, I didn’t even think of that. I was just thinking about the fact that they were sometimes not honest. They would have to be judiciously. Have to be.

Dan: Right, it would be silly because they were programmed to be that.

Aaron: Yeah, because otherwise, they would just anger people.

Dan: Right.

Aaron: Which is crazy! It makes you think, like all these religions are telling you to be honest and not lie but does it really bring peace if I go around telling people what I really think? Is that going to bring peace?

Dan: Yeah. The story, the Jacob story is that he’s being honest in all these situations where he would normally tell a white lie. We all tell white lies, we all tell lies that are designed to protect people’s feelings or help interactions go more smoothly. A white lie means it’s not hurting anyone.

Aaron: That’s right.

Dan: Yeah, I’m sure we all tell white lies every day.

Aaron: Absolutely. I think it’s a social norm to tell white lies.

Dan: Does it make you more spiritual to say whatever pops into your head?

Aaron: No. The phrase my mother always used to say to me would come to mind, “Aaron, if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.” Did your mother ever tell you that, or your parents or teachers?

Dan: Yeah, I think my parents said that.

Aaron: My mother always used to say that. If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all. Just be silent. It’s like don’t upset people.

Dan: I think my parents went beyond that to actually telling me in certain situations. I mean they didn’t say ‘lie’ but maybe they’re telling me you show appreciation when somebody does something to you. That was something that my parents said a lot to me. It was like, there was obviously something behind that even if you get like a pair of socks from your aunt, you write her a letter and tell her how much you like those socks.

Aaron: I had to do the same. Underwear for Christmas or whatever.

Dan: And that’s something that stuck with me and I think that’s really important, showing appreciation.

Aaron: Even when you don’t feel appreciation?

Dan: Well, I guess what my parents were teaching me was that you should appreciate the energy that somebody was putting out to you. So I guess in that way it’s not really a lie. But certainly sometimes there are things that I… I guess in situations where you really don’t appreciate it, maybe it would be better to be radically honest.

Aaron: Maybe.

Dan: But how far do you go?

Aaron: Yeah, where do you draw the line?

Dan: I was reading about this psychologist, Richard Blanton. And he feels that it’s everything, like down to even farting, he feels you got to vocally, you got to project your farts or you’re being dishonest.

Aaron: What? Are you kidding me?

Dan: No, that’s true.

Aaron: Are your serious?

Dan: Yeah.

Aaron: I don’t get it. Why would farting have anything to do with honesty?

Dan: Well, I mean this guy, Jacobs, he writes about the one cheek sneak, which is to make a fart silently and Blanton feels very strongly that that’s lying. If you’ve got to fart, you project it.

Aaron: That’s insane. I disagree. I don’t think it has anything to do with honesty. It has to do with just being polite and considerate of other people.

Dan: Yeah. I mean the polite thing would be to go to another room, but if you’re just being deceptive…

Aaron: Oh boy.

Dan: So which of these three approaches most resonates with you?

Aaron: It’s hard to say. I think a balance of them. I mean, honestly the balance, I need to say ‘no’ more in my life so I think that is more attractive than the ‘yes’ approach. I think I’m a pretty honest guy. I try and practice honesty in my daily life, but I tell white lies as a social convention. I tell them to my children. I tell them when they were younger that Santa Claus is coming to give them presents under the tree and that’s what a lot of American families do.

Dan: Yeah, what about that? Is there something sick about that, like lying to your kids?

Aaron: Well, people talk about that. In one way, you’re sending them a mixed message. You tell them you should always tell the truth, you shouldn’t lie, yet you’re lying about something. But the intention behind it is not malevolent. The intention is to create joy and happiness and fun in the child’s life. I think intention has to be brought into the equation when you’re talking about… Dan: Right, I mean of course if you’re lying to hurt somebody, but the whole idea behind lying about Santa Claus is you’re trying to create some magic in their life and make things more exciting for them as children…

Aaron: And if someone works really hard and I’m really proud of something they did, let’s say they write a poem or they draw a picture and it looks not so nice, and they’ll say, “Oh, look what I’ve done.” And you say, “Yeah, it’s not bad. That’s pretty good.” You want to encourage them to keep going. Okay, deep down you might be thinking, “Oh it doesn’t look so good,” but that would just harm their motivation to say that.

Dan: Right. But is there a certain age that you got to say, “Hey, that drawing stinks. Maybe you should be doing something else.”

Aaron: I think there’s a certain context. I don’t know about age. I don’t know if it’s age-specific. But I think if you really see someone who wants to become good at something and a professional at something, that’s when you step in and say, “Look, when you were a kid it was okay, but now that’s no good.”

Dan: The reason, what made me think about it was I listened to this podcast with this guy recounting what lengths his family went to to create the magic of Christmas, with these magical beings like Santa Claus and the elves. I think two or three times when he was a kid, they staged a Santa Claus crash, like near their house. And they hired maybe like some distant relative to dress up like Santa Claus and to be like wondering in the woods and then they found him.

Aaron: Wow. That’s taking it overboard.

Dan: And they made it logically sound. They made a world, they told the kids there wasn’t just one Santa Claus, and each one had its own district to handle. They all live in North Pole but they came up with something logical that made sense to these kids. And they did that two or three times and they had these Santa Claus clones crash in their area and they brought him home and they talked to him like what life is like in the North Pole and the elves. Anyhow, they kept telling that to one of the kids until he was believing until he was twelve years old. Twelve years old, he’s in sixth grade in elementary school. And he started getting into fights with other kids at school because they were calling him an idiot. Like, “You’re an idiot. There’s no Santa Claus. How old are you?” And he was like, “Not only is there a Santa Claus. I met him.” Like dead serious angry.

Aaron: Oh I see. Now the parents are really creating problems.

Dan: Then the teacher called the parents and said, “Can you just tell him… I don’t know what kind of crazy thing you got going on in your house, but can you tell him not to talk about Santa Claus in school. It’s disruptive.” And then eventually he found out at like 12 or 13 and he was humiliated.

Aaron: Really? When he found out the truth?

Dan: Yes, he felt like such an idiot. Can you imagine? And up until he was like 30, he was holding anger towards his parents. Now they were interviewing him. He’s 30. He’s just like, “I’m not angry anymore but it’s just, it’s just so crazy. Why did you do that?” Those lengths to like deceive someone.

Aaron: Yeah, that’s pretty far out.

Dan: Anyhow, let’s leave it here. I think this is the end.

Aaron: Okay, from here on in I’m going to start saying ‘no’ a little bit more and you’re going to… Dan: I am going to say ‘yes’ more often. I think that’s one of the things I can experiment with. I’m a pretty positive person but I think we can all learn something by just experimenting for a short period of time.

Aaron: By saying yes.

Dan: I think that’s what I’m going to do tomorrow, the next 24 hours I’m going to try to… I’m not going to say ‘yes’ to my spam. But I’m going to say ‘yes’ to anybody but you.

Aaron: Oh, I was getting ready to ask you a question…

Dan: I can see that look. I can see that look in your eyes. I’m not going to go crazy. Okay, I’ll let you know how it goes.

Aaron: All right.